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550 [PERMFAIL] bellsouth.net requires valid sender domain {need mx}

Discussion in 'E-mail Discussions' started by Silver_2000, Jul 15, 2007.

  1. Silver_2000

    Silver_2000 Well-Known Member

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    About 2 weeks ago Bell south started rejecting email from one server

    The server has valid MX records and the reverse DNS lookup is ok as well

    Any hints on where to look would be appreciated

    Other email is working fine, the server handles about 2500 email a day ...

    Thanks in advance Doug
     
  2. chirpy

    chirpy Well-Known Member

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    Check the DNS on dnsstuff.com - if that looks OK, then it's probably a problem at the recipients end.
     
  3. Silver_2000

    Silver_2000 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah DNS report looks fine

    Must be BellSouth - they have been aquired by ATT

    Strage thing is its only one of 2 servers I have that are affected
     
    #3 Silver_2000, Jul 16, 2007
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2007
  4. fikse

    fikse Well-Known Member

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    I'm getting the same error from bellsouth... any updates?
     
  5. NetBlaster

    NetBlaster Member

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    I had a problem months ago with Bellsouth.net because I didn't have an A record for my name servers.

    It may not be the same problem, just thought I'd mention it.

    Ron...
     
  6. Silver_2000

    Silver_2000 Well-Known Member

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    No updates problem continues - the users ARE getting at least SOME email from the server

    I have A records for the NS servers

    DNStuff report is perfect -
     
  7. jandafields

    jandafields Well-Known Member

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    They are getting some, but not all? Perhaps it is a problem with just a single bellsouth mx and not all of them? So you randomly hit the bad one.
     
  8. Silver_2000

    Silver_2000 Well-Known Member

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    I think that every email bounces BUT the user gets MOST of the emails -but Im not certain - the pacell users I spoke to werent too concerned

    I have tried contacting att on phone and by email and no response

    On phone the outsourced idiot couldnt spell my name Doug after spelling it for him 4 times and he never understood that the issue was in SENDING email to pacbell users NOT receiving ...
     
  9. koolcards

    koolcards Well-Known Member

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    They say they can't retrieve your MX record (even though it does exist). Just thought I'd check network and routing issues and you might want to do the same between your machine and theirs. Your first trace surprised me with 574ms at customer-reverse-entry.208.96.31.77 but appears to have only happened that once whereas theirs seems to be constant.


    TraceRoute to 69.59.144.132 [nloc.net]

    6 45 44 44 129.250.5.12 p64-2-0-0.r20.lsanca03.us.bb.gin.ntt.net
    7 54 54 56 129.250.4.96 as-0.r21.snjsca04.us.bb.gin.ntt.net
    8 56 53 53 129.250.4.118 ae-0.r20.plalca01.us.bb.gin.ntt.net
    9 54 52 52 129.250.4.242 xe-4-4.r04.plalca01.us.bb.gin.ntt.net
    10 54 54 52 140.174.41.102 ge-6-4.r04.plalca01.us.ce.gin.ntt.net
    11 416 574 493 208.96.31.77 customer-reverse-entry.208.96.31.77
    12 56 53 56 69.59.144.132 nloc.net




    TraceRoute to 204.127.217.16 [gateway-f1.isp.att.net]

    6 59 7 14 154.54.2.22 t4-1.mpd01.dfw01.atlas.cogentco.com
    7 7 22 8 154.54.6.58 t3-4.mpd01.dfw03.atlas.cogentco.com
    8 15 6 6 154.54.10.154 sbc.dfw03.atlas.cogentco.com
    9 48 48 48 151.164.243.62 ded2-p13-0.snfcca.sbcglobal.net
    10 50 51 52 64.172.39.78 attsi-2of2-san-francisco-1155380.cust-rtr.pacbell.net
    11 51 51 51 207.115.16.50 -
    12 Timed out Timed out Timed out -
    13 52 51 52 204.127.217.16 gateway-f1.isp.att.net
     
  10. sparek-3

    sparek-3 Well-Known Member

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    I believe this is a failure to understand standards by Bellsouth (or maybe me).

    I think the mail is failing because the sender (nobody@aphis.nloc.net) the domain part aphis.nloc.net does not have an MX record. Bellsouth is assuming that because aphis.nloc.net has no MX record, then the address cannot be written back. This is some sort of sender validation or classifying a message a sender as a spammer.

    However (and this is where I might be wrong) a domain does not have to have an MX record. If I understand RFC 974 correctly:

    To me this is saying that if REMOTE (i.e the domain you are sending a message to, in this case aphis.nloc.net) does not have an MX record, then the domain name itself (i.e. aphis.nloc.net) becomes that acting mail server exchange to connect to. This would effectively mean that as long as a domain name or hostname resolves to an IP and responds on the SMTP port (port 25) then you can send mail to that domain name, regardless of whether or not MX records exist.

    I believe this is flawed logic on the part of Bellsouth. I don't think they realize that this is possible. They are just assuming that if a domain name does not have an MX record, then they are rejecting mail from that domain.

    Again, I may not be understanding this correctly, but would welcome other's input.

    Reference:
    RFC 974 - http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc974.txt
     
  11. jandafields

    jandafields Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't matter what the RFC says. If you want bellsouth to accept your mail, you have to play by their rules. If they want to see mx, show them mx!
     
  12. sparek-3

    sparek-3 Well-Known Member

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    Well, I'm not going to argue the merits of whether or not one should take action just to satisfy Bellsouth. But it is my belief that one shouldn't have to patch their system just to satisfy some one else. When you start doing this, you begin to bow to others. Pretty soon you have two large companies, one saying you must do this the other saying you must do something else and they contradict each other. Who do you follow?

    This is why standards systems are in place. What if Microsoft rewrote HTTP to where other browsers like Firefox and Opera no longer rendered Microsoft based web pages? What if Microsoft pressured a lot of other websites to follow suit, basically forcing all Internet users to use Internet Explorer. Is that not wrong?

    Standards are in place for a reason, so that clients and servers can easily communicate. While in some sense, this is really comparing apples and oranges on this particular topic (if Bellsouth's mail servers fail to send out messages to domains that do not have MX records, only then do you have a violation of RFC 974). I just don't think you want to have other companies and corporations controlling you just because they are bigger than you. In my opinion you are asking for trouble when you start letting larger corporations get by without adhering to known standards.

    Again, this is just my opinion on the matter and the original poster wanted to know why they were receiving this error. I gave my response as to what I thought the problem was. They can either petition their host (or if they are the host) to make the necessary MX changes or petition Bellsouth to change their system. The former is probably easier, but it doesn't mean the latter is wrong.
     
  13. mtindor

    mtindor Well-Known Member

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    I personally agree with you - I've always had a problem with how the big elephants strongarm everyone with thier mail requirements. However, if you're a hosting provider it is pretty difficult to tell a customer that they can't send mail because <insert big guy> is blocking your ability to do so because <insert hosting provider> do not want to adhere to their rules.

    Mike


     
  14. jandafields

    jandafields Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, I think it is wrong for the big companies to push off the smaller guys. But either we can fight them with no chance in changing anything, or we can "bow" and stay in business. Bellsouth has such strength in numbers (customers), and for us in bellsouth areas where "everyone" has a bellsouth address using their dsl service, if your server can't email them, that is very bad.
     
  15. mtindor

    mtindor Well-Known Member

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    Yeah and since now Bellsouth is part of ATT (if Im not mistaken), that makes them even bigger now. You pretty much have to cower to the ATTs, Comcasts, Yahoos, AOLs and Hotmails of the world, and Verizons. They can impose the craziest of rules, but you don't have much choice but to abide by those rules.

    End users recognize that Hotmail/Gmail/Yahoo will be around forever and that ATT/Comcast/AOL are the 'big guys.' I guess end users figure that because these companies are the biggest, they must do everything right and must always be fair in their practices... therefore they should be able to send mail to an email address in one of those domains 150% of the time without problem (and not have it go into a spam folder) and should be able to send mail to those domains 150% of the time (and with no delay). And if they can't, it has to be somebody else's problem. Heaven forbid they point the finger at the elephant.

    Then again, maybe end users never point the finger at the elephants because they know it is pointless - so they look for the first scapegoat they can find (which is usually their web hosting company).

    Mike
     
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