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Request to keep EasyApache 3

Discussion in 'EasyApache' started by DWHS.net, Aug 5, 2016.

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  1. DWHS.net

    DWHS.net Well-Known Member
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    I have been saying this for years, why do you keep changing things so they are harder to use?

    The goal is to make things easier and faster not harder and longer.

    You have to run command lines, you can save profiles, I just don't understand why would you make our job so much harder. It take 20 minutes to sift through the 200 options now and I can't even save the profile when I finally do.
     
  2. cPJacob

    cPJacob cPanel Product Owner
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    Hi,

    Thanks for the feedback! We have another iteration of the EA4 UI we're doing for v60, so this will make package selection a bit simpler.

    As for saving profiles, right now that's limited to the command line. You can 'Customize currently installed packages' after you install your selections so you don't have to start over every time.

    Thanks again for the feedback!
     
  3. DWHS.net

    DWHS.net Well-Known Member
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    So if I customize a package, it saves the changes? There is no save option how does it know?

    Does it save it when you compile or just when close the window and everything is saved as you make changes?
     
  4. cPJacob

    cPJacob cPanel Product Owner
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    Hello,

    Right now, when you "customize currently installed packages" in the UI, it will read what packages are on the server, and it won't read / listen to any profiles. You can then add any packages you require, without altering any profiles.

    When you have a setup that you like, right now you manually create the profile, and place it in '/etc/cpanel/ea4/profiles/custom'

    Here's some documentation on our profile setup in it's current state: EasyApache 4 - Create a profile - EasyApache 4 - cPanel Documentation

    I hope to provide a UI for adjusting and saving profiles soon!
     
  5. DWHS.net

    DWHS.net Well-Known Member
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    Yeah, that is a in insane amount of work with hundreds of servers. Not too mention the system itself take 20 times as long.

    In every way the system is harder to use and less efficient. Why force us to use something worse? Are you justifying it because it runs multiple php systems and has more plug ins?

    Because you could of done that with the old version much easier. At least the more plug in part.

    Or just have a easy apache for each php version, no need to add them all together unless they have to compile at the same time.

    You guys killed me with the backup system not allowing me to remove old backups, not you are making easy Apache much harder as well. I just don't understand why you keep making things that take a lot more time and are harder to use.

    Just curious do you factor user time and effort of use when developing CPanel?
     
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  6. rpvw

    rpvw Well-Known Member

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    Somewhere along the line we seem to have lost sight of the fact that WHM/cPanel is meant to make server administrators and end users lives easier ? Or have I completely misunderstood what roll the software is targeted to fulfill.

    Personally (and I am only a tiny host, I dread to think what the hosts with thousands of servers are going through) the changes and uncertainty are actually affecting both my, and the company owners health. We find we are spending more time chasing after how to configure new and changed features and the consequences and repercussions thereof, than actually supporting our existing clients and finding new ones.

    Now all the initiatives to make cPanel the biggest and the most comprehensive and the greatest software ever written are worthy of the highest praise in principle. I do, however, worry that features are being added and being forced on us, more because they 'can' than if they are really wanted or necessary. This would be all well and good if the new stuff was mature and worked for a greater audience but all I see is that it is getting more and more complicated to deploy and make work - more work for the admins !

    Lets back up a bit - as I understand it, cPanel used to have multiple PHP versioning (may have been crude and complicated, I don't know, I actually used a competing product at the time) and for some reason, I'm sure it was a good one, they decided to drop it. Along came CloudLinux who offered a fantastic multi PHP solution, all be it at a further cost, but you got a lot for the extra $$. Suddenly cPanel decides it wants to get back on board with the multi PHP features and seem to have decided to ignore pretty much everything that CloudLinux ever did (it was a depressingly short honeymoon) and have decided to do their own thing (which as understand it is currently causing the CloudLinux developers to pull their hair out, and from the lack of progress, it feels like any attempt to integrate the CloudLinux multi PHP with the new cPanel Multi PHP is being actively sabotaged.

    I am all in favor of a RPM based EA4 - it is a fantastic idea - but lets get it stable and mature and feature rich with a fully developed UI before forcing people to dump EA3 (yes I understand the burden of having to maintain both versions in development).

    Of course, since every web server operator obviously has a profound knowledge and comfort level working on the CL (and if they haven't; they should), which seems to be increasingly necessary to accomplish the most basic of administrative tasks [end sarcasm] all of my concerns are irrelevant !

    cPanel is no longer being 'Built for Everyone' :(
     
  7. sparek-3

    sparek-3 Well-Known Member

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    I think a lot of the issues being mentioned here stem from the fact that there's no WHM UI for managing EasyApache4. For the longest time, cPanel allowed providers to "administer" servers with no command-line knowledge and only through pretty WHM UI. Take that WHM UI away and nobody knows how to do anything any more.

    With EA4 it's just a simple matter of knowing or figuring out what ea4-* packages you want to install, once you have that list, you just yum install ea4-pkg1 ea4-pkg2 ea4-pkg3 ... on all of your servers.

    This is loads easier than the EasyApache3 interface was, at least for me. It makes handling many servers much more easier.
     
  8. vacancy

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    EasyApache 4 promises for the future. but easyapache 3 more functional.

    We have to stay largely dependent on the RPM package provided by cPanel. 3rd party installation of components to ea3 is rather simple. but ea4 have become a torture case. error, error more error.

    A bad idea to kill ea3. Users must be given the chance to choose what you want.
     
  9. sparek-3

    sparek-3 Well-Known Member

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    I'm curious to know what 3rd party components you are having trouble with.

    3rd party components to Apache or 3rd party components to PHP? Or 3rd party components to something else?
     
  10. rpvw

    rpvw Well-Known Member

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    If we are going to be forced to resort to the CL, why not scrap WHM altogether and just concentrate on the cPanel end user interface. This would save cPanel huge amounts of development costs, keep the software firmly in the hands of the linux CL elite and get rid of the riff-taff that are just cluttering up the web hosting business - !!!

    I despair of those that try and set themselves above everyone else by their claims of how clever they are, and how easy it all is, and all you have to do is X, Y, Z. I have been programming since we used punched cards, and at 60, I have forgotten more that most of you think you know, and for all that, I am very, very good at getting it all wrong and into a terrible mess. I don't really care any more if cPanel wants to alienate a large part of it's user base who may well defect to a less feature rich but more admin/user friendly offering. Go ahead and create your web hosting elite - I don't think cPanel sales will thank you for it in the long run.
     
    #10 rpvw, Aug 8, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2016
  11. sawbuck

    sawbuck Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget paper tape. ;-)
     
  12. mtindor

    mtindor Well-Known Member

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    I too am a tiny host in the grand scheme of things.

    I too think that moving to RPM-based EA4 is smart.

    I echo your sentiments exactly with regard to how CloudLinux came along and did everything that we needed to be done, years before cPanel did, and that cPanel is now [apparently] focusing on re-inventing the wheel.

    I trust CloudLinux functionality completely. I'm used to it. Switching to using all of the great CloudLinux features was a learning curve, but I'm so glad it has been around. CloudLinux has allowed me to sleep at night.

    Enter EA4 and MultiPHP, which in my mind aren't anywhere near ready for production -- based upon the horror stories I've read from quite a number of people since they switched to EA4. Not everyone is running 2 sites on a cPanel server. Some people are running 500 or more accounts (and many more sites) on a single cPanel server. Having anything go wrong with 500+ accounts for potentially hours or more is a real business killer.

    I haven't read/heard the final word from CloudLinux yet with regard to their continued development / refinement of PHP Selector. I believe they are at least on board with continued development of it until they are positive that cPanel's MultiPHP is up to the task. But at some point I bet they won't be, and when that happens, those of us who have been die hard users of PHP Selector will end up having to convert potentially hundreds or thousands of accounts [per server] to MultiPHP.

    To add insult to injury, cPanel has given the apparent deadline for EA3 to be removed from WHM. So either we have to stick with the older versions of WHM until the very last minute, or we have to take huge steps to try and convert our servers over to EA4 when [again, in my mind] EA4 just isn't refined enough to convert large EA3-based machines to EA4 without major issues and support nightmares and complaints.

    I really hate airing my grievances about the cPanel/WHM product in the open. I have a lot of respect for cPanel. They have made a wonderful product, one that allows me to actually make money doing what I love to do. But I can't just complain in some staff member's ear, nor would they likely give a damn unless I had 100 cPanel servers. That leaves me to comment in forums.

    Bottom line: I fear that each and every one of my future EA3-to-EA4 conversions is going to become a royal nightmare. I'm hoping not. But I'm counting on that being the way it goes. There seem to be way too many irons in the fire over at cPanel Too many things being EOL'd in nearly the same timeframes [which makes it hard for admins with large infrastructures to plan accordingly]. Too many new features being added without due care being taken [just read a post about "58" and Dovecot MDA not adding Envelope-From / Envelope-To -- WHAT? -- How does something like that get missed].

    Anyway, I love the cPanel guys, especially the support staff -- but damnit slow it down a little bit. You don't need 10 new features in every version, and you don't need to be in such a rush to get the next version out.

    Mike
     
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  13. rpvw

    rpvw Well-Known Member

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    It really is less about airing grievances, and more about the fact that we care enough to bother to take the time to try and communicate to cPanel developers how we feel.

    I am a huge fan of cPanel. When I first converted from a competing panel, I was surprised and gratified by the seamless experience and the fact that everything just .... worked ! ..................... I wonder what happened, or when some policy changed ?

    On the 13th January 2015, I opened a thread on the CloudLinux forum asking about EA4 , currently it is still attracting replies, has a huge following and has no official resolution. The comments from Igor Seletskiy last month did little to reassure me, and there have been no statements, nor announcements from either cPanel nor from CloudLinux that inspire any confidence. The politically correct line seems to be
    but no time line or anticipated date for that to happen has even been speculated about, and frankly, with EA4 seemingly changing every few days, I have no expectations of CloudLinux ever being able to catch up.

    I respect the decisions made by cPanel, but not blindly. The anticipated withdrawal of EA3 is a huge mistake in my opinion. Please someone convince me that I have nothing to worry about, and that cPanel and CloudLinux still love each other and are on the verge of a momentous announcement about how we shall see everything that both systems offer wrapped up into one seamless user interface that just works without having to resort to opening a shell and running a CL every time one tries to achieve anything.

    Failing that - lets at least recognize and agree that CloudLinux needs considerably more time to catch up with the ever changing goalposts that cPanel are setting in EA4, and keep EA3 as an option.
     
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  14. cPanelBenny

    cPanelBenny Community Manager, Development, dog scratcher
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    Hey everyone! I'm benny, and I wanted to jump in here to see if I could help. It looks like there's a lot of frustration in this thread, and I want you to know that your frustrations are being heard. I don't want to address everyone in a point-by-point discussion, but I do want to address the larger (and repeated) concerns and frustrations y'all are feeling.

    First: I want you to know that, though it's not been communicated outwardly very well, *the* motivation of every change we make is "Make it easier for our customers to use cPanel & WHM, and make it easier for them to do their job". EasyApache 4 (once the customization and migrations portions of it are finalized) will absolutely reduce your upkeep times, and reduce your support costs. While we're all geeks and we definitely are prone to getting excited about new stuff (PokémonGo anyone?), that doesn't effect the direction the company takes.

    Too, while we have announced that we will be deprecating EasyApache 3, we have a full development cycle between now and then. That allows us to respond to your feedback before then, and gives us a chance to adjust the deprecation schedule if we need to. Creating custom profiles, saving those profiles, and the existing EasyApache UI in WHM for cPanel & WHM in 58 are all far from what we want them to be, and we're improving the all drastically for 60, 62, and beyond.

    It's true that a large number of cPanel license holders do use CloudLinux, and for that reason our developers have been working directly with theirs at every opportunity to help them integrate the two. Multi-PHP allows us to provide the feature to remaining majority of license holders who don't use CloudLinux, but still want to be able to use more than one PHP version on a server. While I can see why it might feel like we're trying to duplicate an existing feature, it really is to satisfy that request.

    EasyApache 4 is a fundamental change in how an essential part of the product works, and there is still a lot of room for improvements. What I'd *love* to see is submissions to the feature request site for some of the things that make you most trepidatious about the move to EA4. I've started by adding this one:

    EasyApache Profile customization

    We crave feedback, and the feature request site is one of the best places for us to get a clear picture of what people want. I can't wait to see what you all come up with!
     
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  15. rpvw

    rpvw Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure that benny is convinced I have made it my sole objective to make her life miserable.

    Nothing could be further from the truth, I have never expected everyone to agree with what I say all the time (99.999% is quite sufficient :-p ).

    My objectives are only to provoke a healthy and productive dialogue, and to persuade the cPanel great and powerful to, at least, listen to different perspectives and points of view on the off chance they may inspire new thoughts, or perhaps influence decisions.

    So please spare a few minutes of your time to add your thoughts and feedback (good, bad, indifference are all valid - personal attacks are not !!) to this thread and/or to the feature request mentioned above.

    Of course, some feedback from the cPanel developers themselves would also be welcome - some insight as to their thoughts, objectives and dreams would go a long way to humanizing a process that seems to only consist of the usual sterile, politically correct, public relations announcements.
     
    #15 rpvw, Aug 9, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2016
  16. kernow

    kernow Well-Known Member

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    This is part of the frustration I have, your deprecating EasyApache 3 because what? why? based on system admin feed back? somehow I don't think so but point me to the threads if I'm wrong. I like the idea of EA4 being rpm based but other than that EA3 works great for us as it is thank you very much :)
    And don't forget, cPanel runs on a Linux OS and one of the things Unix/Linux has always been about is: CHOICE!
    Oh, and CloudLinux PHP selector is a way better tool than your multi PHP. (sorry )
     
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  17. vacancy

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    #17 vacancy, Aug 10, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2016
  18. sparek-3

    sparek-3 Well-Known Member

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    This might be slightly off-topic, but I think it could also be relevant to this discussion because EasyApache4 has been out for some time now, but you're just now starting to get back solid feedback.

    I think a lot of the problems that cPanel has in general has to do with testing and quality assurance. You have Edge, Current, Release, Stable, and LTS cPanel solutions. I may be wrong, but I suspect that very few people actually run Edge or Current - at least in a production environment. And server administrators that are a bit more knowledgeable tend to hold back to Stable or LTS. Everything may appear to be smooth sailing through the more beta cPanel releases because few people are using them and the ones that are using it aren't really experienced in trying in-depth tasks with the new versions. It's not until features and new applications get into the hands of more knowledgeable administrators that problems start to get picked up.

    Like I said, I may be wrong in this assessment but that's just kind of the feel that I get, with cPanel releases and changes like EasyApache4. I know from my own experience, I tend to hold back on updates until I feel the community has more adequately tested things. It's much more difficult to constantly update a fleet of 50+ servers due to problems and instability compared to a fleet of 1 or 2 servers, so waiting for new features and applications to stabilize is a preference of mine.

    I don't know how you would resolve this, but if this is the problem, then identifying the problem is the first step towards a resolution.
     
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  19. rpvw

    rpvw Well-Known Member

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    I think sparek-3 raises an excellent and important point to consider here, and I should be intrigued by how many Edge and Current testers there really are. I can see the huge companies sacrificing a box or 2 for testing, but what about the 1 and 2 box outfits ? So are we really talking about a broader issue which would appear to one of testing, and access to testing environments ?

    I can't help wondering if cPanel couldn't make some consideration for people that really want to help by running test environments but appear to be thwarted by the installation requirements. The installation guide indicates that it would be almost impossible attempting to run cPanel on say a vbox machine running on my workstation - the networking requirements alone would seem to preclude it.

    Now there are many, many very talented people out there that could be a huge asset to cPanel IF they didn't have to spend money on a public facing server, and then a license, just to be able to run a Edge build. Have you guys lost sight of the fact we are not all GoDaddy ? Surely there is some way of helping testers run and test and debug cPanel for you without making us pay for the privilege as well ? I cannot believe you can't control the installation licenses since cPanel seems to 'call home' every chance it gets and you must be able to stop illegal deployments of properly registered testing installations.
     
    #19 rpvw, Aug 10, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2016
  20. cPanelBenny

    cPanelBenny Community Manager, Development, dog scratcher
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    Not at all! Feedback is my oxygen, and I *love* when people are engaged and interested. With our many different users, and user-types, there's literally never a duplicated perspective.

    EasyApache 3 has long been a pain point for our big and small customers like. Having to manually run a recompile for every update or change is a problem. I'm truly happy to hear that it has done well for you, but you are definitely in a minority there.

    We actually recommend against folks using EDGE builds in production environments for a few reasons, but almost all of us at cPanel host our personal/family/pet-project websites on EDGE. When I looked at the numbers a few months ago there were more people using CURRENT than STABLE, and RELEASE was by far the most widely used tier.

    I absolutely agree that our beta-testers/early-adopters pool could (and should) be bigger, and that it has a serious possibility of helping matters. We do provide free development licenses for people interested in helping us test new features early. Developers can apply for one here:

    Developer License Application | cPanel, Inc.

    Users can contact customer service (cs@cpanel.net) to request one.
     
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