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The Interchange Upgrade

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Curious Too, Nov 16, 2002.

  1. Curious Too

    Curious Too Well-Known Member

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    I looked in the change log and the WHM news and there is no mention of the Interchange upgrade. This is the second time since I've been using CPanel that Interchange has been upgraded without notice. While most of the carts were ok with the upgrade, two of them broke and had to be completely reconfigured. One of the customers is so angry he refuses to correspond with me regarding the fixes he had to put in place to get his cart working again and I fully expect to lose his account. I have customers who make over $100,000/year in sales using their Interchange carts. The people at Dark Orb should consider the impact some of these unannounced upgrades can have on their customers business.
     
  2. dRiver

    dRiver Active Member

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    Sat Nov 9 20:45:34 EST 2002
    5.x Build#30
    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    interchange 4.9.3
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
     
  3. Curious Too

    Curious Too Well-Known Member

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    [quote:53c9d26a5d][i:53c9d26a5d]Originally posted by thaphantom[/i:53c9d26a5d]

    That actually seems more like a interchange problem... If they are making it so that when their softeare is upgraded it doesnt work without having to fix each cart... well that just isnt ogod to say the least.[/quote:53c9d26a5d]

    It probably is -- I have about 12 very active Interchange carts and only 2 broke. One I was able to fix -- for some reason the cart tried to read the &products& file instead of the &products.txt& file. Copying the products.txt file to a products file fixed that problem.

    The other I have no idea because like I said the owner will not correspond other than to say the cart is broken. He had the same problem as the other broken cart -- the config trying to read a products file instead of the products.txt file. I fixed that, the cart looks ok to me but in his initial complaint he mentioned that his users could no longer log into the cart. I see login errors in his error.log but I also see some successful logins. I don't want to dig any further into his configuration without his consent, but like I said, he refused to answer any email from me.

    The customers understand about upgrades and as long as they know the upgrade is coming they can prepare for it. They just don't want to wake up one morning and be blindsided by changes.
     
  4. Curious Too

    Curious Too Well-Known Member

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    [quote:6d6723fe5a][i:6d6723fe5a]Originally posted by dRiver[/i:6d6723fe5a]


    Sat Nov 9 20:45:34 EST 2002
    5.x Build#30
    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    interchange 4.9.3
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    [/quote:6d6723fe5a]

    My mistake then, I missed it. It still would have been nice to have it announced in the WHM news.
     
  5. ozzi4648

    ozzi4648 Guest

    [quote:bb0f53f925][i:bb0f53f925]Originally posted by Curious Too[/i:bb0f53f925]

    I looked in the change log and the WHM news and there is no mention of the Interchange upgrade. This is the second time since I've been using CPanel that Interchange has been upgraded without notice. While most of the carts were ok with the upgrade, two of them broke and had to be completely reconfigured. One of the customers is so angry he refuses to correspond with me regarding the fixes he had to put in place to get his cart working again and I fully expect to lose his account. I have customers who make over $100,000/year in sales using their Interchange carts. The people at Dark Orb should consider the impact some of these unannounced upgrades can have on their customers business.[/quote:bb0f53f925]

    The stupid Interchange cart v4.8 was broke anyway, so i dont know why his bitching. First of all if he already had his cart running the only major change would have been his Admin interface, not his actualy configured cart. Second, i believe the upgrade was due to my request which was that damn thing was so full of bugs that new people deploying v4.8 just couldnt get it configured. At least the new version is somewhat easier to deploy and corrects the bug that didnt allow proper deployment before 100K a year? Now this i have to see. If his so mad, ask him why he didnt backup his site. Surely anyone making 100k would look after their investment and and least backup their site one in a blue moon, dont you think?
     
  6. Curious Too

    Curious Too Well-Known Member

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    I generally ignore your posts but I have to say that the cart wasn't broken it was running fine. I have several heavy Interchange users running very active carts. I have one Interchange user that uses 25Gigs of bandwidth per month and has no problems with the cart and their cart was not affected by the upgrade. Don't assume because you had/have problems that everyone else does.
     
  7. moronhead

    moronhead Well-Known Member

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    & that damn thing was so full of bugs ...

    ozzi, how can you be so ignorant, it's mind boggling! Obviously you are not a dopey, as otherwise you wouldn't be running (or be part of) a hosting business with 20+ (was it?) servers. As Curious Too told you, there are lots of users who've been running very busy Interchange carts very stably with the previous version. What you were ranting about in that post was a wish for an enhancement in Interchange, it wasn't a bug. The program, like other 3rd party apps, is updated by the Cpanel team regularly.
     
  8. anton

    anton Member

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    IC 4.8.6 was just fine, no more bugs than other releases and YES, cpanel should inform about upgrades. If someone has an important store with IC, make sure it does NOT run on Interchange, just install it yourself server wide or in the users home directory
     
  9. pupok

    pupok Registered

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    you are clueless.

    [quote:7e5f4fe835]
    The stupid Interchange cart v4.8 was broke anyway, so i dont know why his bitching. First of all if he already had his cart running the only major change would have been his Admin interface, not his actualy configured cart. Second, i believe the upgrade was due to my request which was that damn thing was so full of bugs that new people deploying v4.8 just couldnt get it configured. At least the new version is somewhat easier to deploy and corrects the bug that didnt allow proper deployment before 100K a year? Now this i have to see. If his so mad, ask him why he didnt backup his site. Surely anyone making 100k would look after their investment and and least backup their site one in a blue moon, dont you think?[/quote:7e5f4fe835]

    The inanity of these statements appals me. I am an interchange developer
    who is hosting my site on a server that runs cpanel. When I first discovered
    the upgrade Monday morning, I didn't believe it at first -- nobody who knew
    anything at all about interchange or its development proccess would use
    version 4.9 in a running, production site.

    Perhaps you are not aware of the implications of this massive production
    change. Interchange 4.9.3 is the development version of the 5.0
    Interchange release, which is not slated to come out for several months.
    It is a testing version, and the Interchange developers recommend that
    all publicly-accessible carts continue to run on the 4.8, stable
    release. They make it available for install so that Interchange
    developers can play around with the new functions and anticipate the
    changes they will need to make to their carts when the time comes to
    upgrade. They do not guarantee its stability or security -- in fact,
    they warn that it is probably not stable or secure.

    The interchange documentation includes an upgrade guide, because
    upgrading one's catalog to a newer version of interchange is never as
    simple as just installing the new server and no, the look of the admin
    is not the only change between versions... That is a superficial and
    ignorant observation. The underlying components differ greatly between
    each stable release. Interchange is a complex data management and
    order-taking system, and never claimed to have a gentle learning
    curve. Version 4.9 is not easier to deploy, because it is still in development
    and has tons of unresolved bugs and possible security holes. This release
    was pulled out of CVS so that experienced interchange developers could
    test it, NOT so that ignorant beginners could have the appearance of an
    easier deployment.

    As an interchange developer, I highly recommend that you put ic 4.8 back,
    as the 4.9 release is NOT ready for use in an actual functioning cart. If you
    do decide to keep the 4.9 release, you should install 4.8 in parallel
    running on a different port to give your users the option of a choice.

    I am sure your other customers who use interchange on your server would
    want to know that you were doing what you could to ensure that their
    sites were functioning properly and securely -- which you clearly are
    not. This massive change at least merits an administrative announcement
    e-mail sent to all customers, outlining the change. As a matter of fact,
    I would recommend warning your customers several weeks in advance of
    upgrading interchange, to give them time to go through their code and
    port it to the new system.
     
  10. dtm

    dtm Registered

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    Someone deployed IC 4.9?! HA!

    &i&*sputter*&/i&

    &i&*boggle*&/i&

    Okay.

    I was told that a professional ISP put Interchange 4.9 in production. :-o

    Then I was told that they'd done so with &i&no notification or contingency plan whatsoever&/i&!

    And furthermore, I was told that there exists an ISP management subscription service that pushes software updates across an entire ISP's ASP service in a &i&compulsory and non-localized fashion&/i&!

    I relayed this to some senior members of the Interchange development community and when we all got done howling, I had to come see if this was a prank or not! Apparently this really happened! &b&*Incredible*&/b&! I can imagine the brainstorm meeting where they came up with that one, with six shooters a'blazing in the air! &i&WOO HOO!!&/i&

    They must have declared it a company-wide &b&&We Hate Our Customers and Our Customers' Customers& holiday&/b&!

    While essentially quite correct, I think good ol' Pupok might be a bit generous in proposing that someone running a successful business could audit, debug, stage, and republish their entire ecommerce site, _live_, accountable to all their customers, in only three weeks! ;) And then repeat that cycle every time one of 4.9's inevitable bugs are found, requiring another impromptu upgrade, and *probably* forcing new and potentially disruptive features upon the user base again!

    Even if it was humanly possible for every single business to do that, that would assume that they have immediate and affordable access to whoever designed their IC store, which could be anyone, anywhere, at any price. Most likely a premium outside consultant for custom stores, as most companies barely have fulltime IT staff, let alone fulltime open source savvy web programmers. Let's not get *too* comfy with the luxury of being a fulltime IC developer at your company!

    I truly adored that guy's comment implying that customers who run businesses, should be in charge of backing up web sites! Hehehe.

    Pupok's comment about publishing both, on alternate ports was a good idea. Some developers may be on the bleeding edge of IC CVS and ICDevgroup activity, gone through the aforementioned minimal QA process, and ascertained that their site would not use any new and constantly changing features of 4.9. Oh wait, never mind -- if they could do that then they'd just stay on 4.8 anyway! But still a good idea to offer. Hehe.

    Wow, and this company even provides this forum as a community service for clueful hosting providers to scoop up their customers as the end of this very special holiday! How thoughtful! ;-)

    Curious Too, be sure to wish your former customers a very merry holiday season on behalf of your ISP and this software distribution service! Woo hoo! &/i&&/b&*blam blam blam*&/b&&/i&
     
  11. moronhead

    moronhead Well-Known Member

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    dtm and pupok,

    is it true that the file name has been changed from product.txt to product, or vice versa in the development version?

    And, you are not representing or use some oddball control panel that's in competition to cpanel, are you? ;)

    Regards,
    Norman
     
  12. pupok

    pupok Registered

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    [quote:d1a71f91bd][i:d1a71f91bd]Originally posted by moronhead[/i:d1a71f91bd]
    is it true that the file name has been changed from product.txt to product, or vice versa in the development version?
    [/quote:d1a71f91bd]
    I wouldn't know about this, Norman. As far as I know, the *.txt files keep their names from one version to another.
    [quote:d1a71f91bd]
    And, you are not representing or use some oddball control panel that's in competition to cpanel, are you? ;)
    [/quote:d1a71f91bd]

    No, I am a cpanel user and an interchange developer, grappling with the fact that cpanel consistently makes interchange unusable. ... I think I wish I were using some oddball control panel that's in competition to cpanel, at least then there's a chance the maintainers would have a clue.

    Janie.
     
  13. dtm

    dtm Registered

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    no competition to THIS!

    Hi there Moronhead! Competition? No way! :) Although it's touching that you'd ask ;) I'm just trying to defend the open source community against this blatant abuse. I run the whole spectrum. I am an occasional volunteer for the FSF, an active open source project manager, and I'm also in the 100% fullest support for commercial use and promotion of free and open source software. But this is insane!

    I'm not a member of ICDevgroup and I don't speak directly for them, but I do get my information from several key members personally, so take my comments as such.

    ICDevgroup.org is the official canonical site and development community for Interchange since Redhat discontinued support about a year or so ago. FYI, Pupok's ISP continues to mistakenly display it as Redhat's product. The following is a quote from the leadership of ICDevgroup regarding how CPanel's product abusively deploys Interchange as a product.

    1. Bad permissions setups. Since Interchange runs as one user, the
    www files are typically created with another user, and the FTP
    processes log in as yet another user, people are unable to read
    and write all files in the Interchange UI, and are unable to FTP
    into and read/modify Interchange files.
    2. People blowing away their catalogs completely by pressing a
    &create catalog& option which overwrites their initial catalog
    without warning.
    3. Selecting GDBM database instead of MySQL or Postgres for
    database.
    4. Hosting providers providing supposed support for Interchange
    while having no knowledge of the application themselves.

    ICDevgroup is the type of group that would *love* to welcome such deployments, to further validate and promote the Interchange product! Even if CPanel didn't contribute anything directly back to the community or product. But in this case, they can't appreciate it because CPanel not only destroys Interchange deployments in huge masses (hence this entire thread) but its staff ambiguously misdirects blame for CPanel's abusive blunderings, upon the Interchange community.

    So in summary, CPanel requires the permanent crippling of all Interchange deployments' configurations and data integrity, intermittently wrecks site-specifc data during pseudo-housekeeping, and then wrecks the whole thing with a randomly unqualified pseudo-update! Absolutely unbelievable.
     
  14. moronhead

    moronhead Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for introducing yourselves and explaining things in such depth. ;)

    & CPanel requires the permanent crippling of all Interchange deployments' configurations ...

    Is the word &requires& meaning there's no way to technically implement IC on a shared Cpanel system any other way except in the present format?

    Or does it mean that you believe it's possible to offer all those options you've listed, while at the same time taking into account Cpanel's structure?

    Let's say, would adding an automated, full install of IC in each user's space (with no connections to the innards of Cpanel - but with prior tweaking of config files) be a more flexible option? Right now, the agora cart, phpBB and some other apps are installed this way already, without any loss of functions. Would that work?

    Regards,
    Norman
     
  15. pupok

    pupok Registered

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    There is a smarter way to do it. Installing an independent version of interchange for each user is one option, but I think it would require that each ic daemon run on a different port. It would allow expert interchange users more control over their server, but also unfortunately give newbies more liberty to misconfigure things. If the Cpanel folks included an easy way to restore your main server configs to the default, that wouldn't be a problem.

    There may even be a way to do it the way it is done now -- with one server running for everyone on the machine. This implementation does have its limitations, however -- for instance, I need to have my own custom shipping usertag installed in the global usertags directory, which requires me to ask my hosting provider to put it there for me, and for him to be OK with that... Not ideal. And, as dtm mentioned, cpanel owns a lot of my personal interchange files, and I don't have permission to view or edit them. Sometimes I have to ask my sysadmin to go in and delete or chown these files for me, to allow me to edit them. If cpanel was smarter about the way it set up permissions, this wouldn't be a problem.

    Not to mention the random upgrading to testing, unstable, development versions of interchange with no warning. All in all, if the cpanel folks took some time to actually listen to interchange developers and understand how it works, and had a little bit of common sense instead of just blaming icdevgroup for their own ignorance, cpanel would be a much more solid product.

    Janie
     
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