WHAAAAAAAAAAAAA DELETING MY POSTING???

Site5-Matt

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2001
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Thoughts of a frontman...

Moronhead,

While I realize that Nick has requested that this matter be put to rest, I feel that you do deserve an answer to your main points. Allow me to express Site5's stance on the matter.
[quote:84816fe64b][i:84816fe64b]Originally posted by moronhead[/i:84816fe64b]
So is the same with hostrocket and others. However, none of your resources or efforts benefit us, the smaller hosts. All the improvements always have to come from Nick. So it may be time now for you, the large distributors who have the most to gain from Nick's work, to contribute to the further development of Cpanel/WHM core and fast.[/quote:84816fe64b]It looks like you're suggesting that all companies stop their independent development work and all contribute all of our efforts to improving Cpanel as a whole. While that certainly has it's benefits, you have to realize that most of our competitors are Cpanel-based hosts. If all of our resources go into improving Cpanel, then we are essentially working for our competitors.
[quote:84816fe64b]Your loyalty to Cpanel/WHM as a distibutor is probably there because you get it at a much lower price than we do.[/quote:84816fe64b]We have not always been a distributor. We have been long-time supporters of Cpanel, and it is for this reason that we were granted distributorship. Not the other way around.
[quote:84816fe64b]Yet you still come to this forum and get free support for your own customers.[/quote:84816fe64b]Please show me one thread where Site5 requests support on these forums... I doubt you will find one. In fact, just the other day, one of our sysadmins (Vince) posted a fix for ext3 quotas on RH 6.2. Is this the kind of self-serving attitude that you are upset about?
[quote:84816fe64b]I think it may be time for you guys, the distributors, to pool your resources (and open your purses for once ;) ) and make Cpanel/WHM what it was set up for... the best server CP on the market.[/quote:84816fe64b]Actually, I happen to agree with you here. I would like nothing more than for Cpanel to become the best control panel solution available (in fact, I think it already is). This is one of the reasons that I [b:84816fe64b]volunteer[/b:84816fe64b] my time (free of charge, that is) to assist with development of this product. Tell me--how many companies do you know of that are actually actively involved with the development of Cpanel? Currently, Nick and I are the ONLY developers... and Adam (snowgod--the other object of your callous insults) is the only other person to have ever assisted with development directly. So of all the companies out there, I think it's pretty safe to say that Site5 is as involved with Cpanel's development and advancement as anyone--if not, much, much more.

However that doesn't seem to matter to you. I suppose you would appreciate if we had our employees work 40 hours a week developing Cpanel and adding new features, documentation, etc... right? Well, I'm sure every other Cpanel customer would like that too. :)

Unfortunately, we're not in business to do free work for another company. You can certainly make the argument that helping to improve Cpanel benefits distributors in the long run, but it's also quite costly to pay quality programmers for their time. If Nick felt that additional help was needed on this project, I think that he is quite capable of hiring more employees.

I think that your malice towards the distributors is ill-directed. Quite a few of the distributors [b:84816fe64b]are[/b:84816fe64b] major contributors to this project--whether you realize it or not. We may not pour thousands of dollars a month into the development of someone else's product (I know it's shocking), but you can rest assured that we do go out of our way to create patches, track down and report bugs, suggest new features, and most importantly--we utilize the product to the fullest extent.

If in your mind, developing systems and software to work alongside and to enhance and extend Cpanel/WHM's functionality makes us a bad company, then I guess we are guilty as accused. I would imagine, however, that you will need to point that same finger at most of the companies using this product--as I am certain that nearly everyone feels the need to add something to their service that makes them stand out--whether it be a well-written support manual, an in-house billing system, new Cpanel modules, enhanced reseller functionality, a great looking skin, or something else.

Oh and by the way... your comment about Adam and I being &frontmen& could not have been farther from the truth--nor could it have been further out of line. I would suggest you figure out exactly who you're speaking to before slinging insults in a knee-jerk fashion. Much of the product that you are using now is the result of Adam's and my work.

At any rate, I hope that answers your questions--and perhaps sheds some light on things from our side.

Best Regards,
Matt Lightner
VP, Technical Operations
Site5 Internet Solutions, Inc.
[email protected]
 

moronhead

Well-Known Member
Aug 12, 2001
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316
Matt, I can see you're itching for a fight, but out of my fullest respect to Nick I will abstain from replying to your remarks as this is what I promised to him I would do.

I hope you'll continue with your technical assistance in fixing bugs, put up patches and so on. As to branding the Cpanel, you're not the only company who puts their own brand and it's in fact one of Cpanel's strengths.

All in all, what you've been saying points to the fact that we, the smaller hosts with less resources, will always lag behind in the functionality of the same product compared to the large distributor... while paying more for it. This has been my point from the beginning.

And unless something is done to turn the tide for the smaller host and fast, I fear that your &I don't care about you as long as I get what I want from the core product and privately extend its functionality& attitude may have untold consequences in the long run for all of us.
 

Site5-Matt

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2001
81
0
306
[quote:d9d3c4a97d][i:d9d3c4a97d]Originally posted by moronhead[/i:d9d3c4a97d]
Matt, I can see you're itching for a fight, but out of my fullest respect to Nick I will abstain from replying to your remarks as this is what I promised to him I would do.[/quote:d9d3c4a97d]I'm not itching for a fight, but I do find heated discussions quite productive in most cases. ;)
[quote:d9d3c4a97d]I hope you'll continue with your technical assistance in fixing bugs, put up patches and so on.[/quote:d9d3c4a97d]We certainly intend to.
[quote:d9d3c4a97d]As to branding the Cpanel, you're not the only company who puts their own brand and it's in fact one of Cpanel's strengths.[/quote:d9d3c4a97d]I definitely agree. If every host you went to called it &Cpanel& and used the default theme, we would all look like resellers.
[quote:d9d3c4a97d]All in all, what you've been saying points to the fact that we, the smaller hosts with less resources, will always lag behind in the functionality of the same product compared to the large distributor... while paying more for it. This has been my point from the beginning.[/quote:d9d3c4a97d]I have to disagree here. We released our &NetAdmin& control panel system long before we were a distributor. In fact, when this was released, there WERE no distributors--because Cpanel was available [b:d9d3c4a97d]only[/b:d9d3c4a97d] at VDI. Furthermore, the product was developed when we had only two servers (yes--a long time ago). On top of that, I was responsible for 100% of the development of NetAdmin--and at the time I can assure you that I was no Perl guru.

I also developed our private billing system (BillAdmin), which was later made publicly available to anyone running Cpanel (and is still in use by a few companies today). My success on these projects was not the result of someone waving cash in front of my face, nor was it the result of some divine inspiration that only touches the larger Cpanel distributors--it was simply my own personal determination to fill the few gaps that I saw in an otherwise great product. Anyone--even a small host--is surely capable of this.

I think this is more a testament of the product's ease of use and huge potential for expansion and customization, as opposed to some massive outlay of cash by large companies. I mean honestly--how much work do you think we are doing over here? Adding features into Cpanel is not rocket science. Just have a look at Cpanelthemes.com's new Fantastico product. They didn't have a staff of ten developers sitting in a room 8 hours a day to develop that (not that I know of anyway), and yet they managed to churn out a quality add-on for Cpanel. If I can do it, and they can do it, I certainly think that someone as intelligent and determined as yourself would have no trouble adding onto Cpanel. That's the beauty of this product--it lets even beginner programmers (that's not meant to say that you are a beginner) safely add features, and consequently, add value to their service.
[quote:d9d3c4a97d]And unless something is done to turn the tide for the smaller host and fast, I fear that your &I don't care about you as long as I get what I want from the core product and privately extend its functionality& attitude may have untold consequences in the long run for all of us.[/quote:d9d3c4a97d]I seriously disagree with you. Private development, whether it be for Cpanel or something else, is what creates diversity within the industry. I think the fact that you are upset about companies like Site5 doing our own in-house development is quite ridiculous. We simply know what we want out of this product, and if we find that it isn't already implemented--we add it. Would you prefer an industry where everyone uses the exact same implementation of Cpanel? Feel free to indulge this idea by not adding anything to your service that makes you distinguishable from the myriad Cpanel hosts out there--but I certainly won't.

If you want [b:d9d3c4a97d]my[/b:d9d3c4a97d] opinion, I think we should all ridicule Communitech. Why, you ask? Because they developed their own control panel in-house (a very nice one, I might add), and refuse to let other companies use it. In fact, while we at it, let's not forget anyone who has ever purchased any proprietary software, modified and enhanced it via the available API's to fit their needs, and not sent their modifications back to the developers for inclusion with the market version of the product (so that their competitors could benefit from said company's development work).

Don't get me wrong... I am not naive enough to think that Cpanel will remain on top if it doesn't improve. But I can tell you this: I think that if there is anyone capable of continuously turning out new developments and innovations, it is Nick. Cpanel is, for the most part, Nick's work. In my opinion, he has single-handedly put products like Plesk and Ensim (who employ huge teams of developers) to shame. I wouldn't be caught dead with one of these programs on our servers. I think that with Nick at the helm, Cpanel is in no danger of going anywhere. It's a solid product, and it would take a minor miracle for someone else to steal it's thunder (and I'm certain that even if that happened, Nick would continue diligently with his updates of the program).

As I see it, the only impending danger is not to Cpanel itself, nor to the innovative companies who have chosen to take the initiative and extend this product's functionality. Instead I think that--if anyone--the companies who simply put up a stock Cpanel install, who make no attempt to customize the product and make it their own, who are simply out to make a quick buck and not to establish a viable solution for their customers are the ones who should be worried.

That's my $0.02 anyway. I would love to hear your thoughts on the matter.

Best Regards,
Matt Lightner
 

ace

Active Member
Sep 24, 2001
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[quote:da47db9a74][i:da47db9a74]Originally posted by Site5-Matt[/i:da47db9a74]
I seriously disagree with you. Private development, whether it be for Cpanel or something else, is what creates diversity within the industry. I think the fact that you are upset about companies like Site5 doing our own in-house development is quite ridiculous. We simply know what we want out of this product, and if we find that it isn't already implemented--we add it. Would you prefer an industry where everyone uses the exact same implementation of Cpanel? Feel free to indulge this idea by not adding anything to your service that makes you distinguishable from the myriad Cpanel hosts out there--but I certainly won't.
[/quote:da47db9a74]
I agree. While many hosts are willing (and sometimes eager) to assist their competitors, there obviously will, and should be, a line, and giving competitors innovations that creates an image of uniqueness is well over that line in my opinion. The same rings true in any industry. It wouldn't make good business sense for McDonalds to allow Burger King to produce Big Macs, right? It shouldn't be any different in this situation.
[quote:da47db9a74]Don't get me wrong... I am not naive enough to think that Cpanel will remain on top if it doesn't improve. But I can tell you this: I think that if there is anyone capable of continuously turning out new developments and innovations, it is Nick. Cpanel is, for the most part, Nick's work. In my opinion, he has single-handedly put products like Plesk and Ensim (who employ huge teams of developers) to shame. I wouldn't be caught dead with one of these programs on our servers. I think that with Nick at the helm, Cpanel is in no danger of going anywhere. It's a solid product, and it would take a minor miracle for someone else to steal it's thunder (and I'm certain that even if that happened, Nick would continue diligently with his updates of the program).
[/quote:da47db9a74]
I give Nick a lot of credit for all of the accomplishments that have been made, especially given the flack he takes on a near-daily basis. If you think about it, he goes absolutely out of his way to help anyone needing assistance. If you buy a PC from Dell pre-loaded with WinXP, and you try calling Microsoft for support - their answer will be &Sorry, we cannot help you, you'll need to contact the manufacturer.& It's my understanding that Darkorb works under a similar structure, in that users should be contacting their distributors first, rather than DarkOrb. Yet, I've rarely (if ever) seen Nick turn a customer in need away. I personally think that speaks to his dedication to a product that started as nothing, and has no surpassed the quality and functionality of even the largest, publicly traded competitors.
[quote:da47db9a74]
As I see it, the only impending danger is not to Cpanel itself, nor to the innovative companies who have chosen to take the initiative and extend this product's functionality. Instead I think that--if anyone--the companies who simply put up a stock Cpanel install, who make no attempt to customize the product and make it their own, who are simply out to make a quick buck and not to establish a viable solution for their customers are the ones who should be worried.
[/quote:da47db9a74]
With the over abundance of webhosts popping up every which way you can think of, you almost have no choice but to offer even that one little unique feature that gives you an edge, because let's face it, there are those potential customers out there that don't have the desire to do the research on uptime, service, etc... That one extra thing in your control panel may be the deciding factor for many. Cpanel makes that incredibly easy, and all it requires is a little vision. :)
 

moronhead

Well-Known Member
Aug 12, 2001
706
0
316
[quote:d02e0e89a7][i:d02e0e89a7]Originally posted by Site5-Matt[/i:d02e0e89a7]
Moronhead,

While I realize that Nick has requested that this matter be put to rest, I feel that you do deserve an answer to your main points. Allow me to express Site5's stance on the matter.[/quote:d02e0e89a7]
You mean I deserve a good battering? Maybe you should have heeded Nick's words (I did!) and ended this thread on a positive note (as I offered it to you in my response to your private apology email) instead of going with your negative instincts and trying to kick me out of this forum because you just couldn't take in my opinion!

[quote:d02e0e89a7]
It looks like you're suggesting that all companies stop their independent development work and all contribute all of our efforts to improving Cpanel as a whole. While that certainly has it's benefits, you have to realize that most of our competitors are Cpanel-based hosts. If all of our resources go into improving Cpanel, then we are essentially working for our competitors.[/quote:d02e0e89a7]
Wrong! I never said or suggested that private development of Cpanel/WHM should stop. Why should it stop? I offer my clients enhanced Cpanels myself as hundreds of other hosts do. But I don't claim that the product is my own creation because I made it more attractive to look at with a new skin and added a few bits to it.

[quote:d02e0e89a7]... In fact, just the other day, one of our sysadmins (Vince) posted a fix for ext3 quotas on RH 6.2. Is this the kind of self-serving attitude that you are upset about?[/quote:d02e0e89a7]
The Cpanel community will be grateful to Vince for his positive contributions. He seems the sensible one at site5 as he's never bothered wasting his time writing in this thread. ;)

[quote:d02e0e89a7]Actually, I happen to agree with you here. I would like nothing more than for Cpanel to become the best control panel solution available (in fact, I think it already is).[/quote:d02e0e89a7]
I couldn't agree more. And these days it keeps getting better with higher velocity.

[quote:d02e0e89a7] ... and Adam (snowgod--the other object of your callous insults) is the only other person to have ever assisted with development directly. So of all the companies out there, I think it's pretty safe to say that Site5 is as involved with Cpanel's development and advancement as anyone--if not, much, much more.[/quote:d02e0e89a7]
Nick has already acknowledged your contribution so there's nothing to add in that direction. I never deliberately intended to insult you or your colleague, that's a heavy accusation.

[quote:d02e0e89a7] I suppose you would appreciate if we had our employees work 40 hours a week developing Cpanel and adding new features, documentation, etc... right? Well, I'm sure every other Cpanel customer would like that too. :)[/quote:d02e0e89a7]
That's just a myth. You don't supply your netadmin skin even to your dedicated server clients, let alone offering it to the wider Cpanel community! But I agree that you don't have to.

[quote:d02e0e89a7]I think that your malice towards the distributors is ill-directed.[/quote:d02e0e89a7]
Malice? I don't believe I possess such a quality! Maybe you've found my comments controversial from your own angle, but that's just about it.

[quote:d02e0e89a7]If in your mind, developing systems and software to work alongside and to enhance and extend Cpanel/WHM's functionality makes us a bad company, then I guess we are guilty as accused.[/quote:d02e0e89a7]
Nobody said you're a bad company. I am merely concentrating on enlarging the scope of Cpanel/WHM for the good of the whole community. It's enhancements like Fantastico, Deoskins and others that get my vote because they are not saying: &I'll sell this to you if you host your site with me&.

[quote:d02e0e89a7]I would imagine, however, that you will need to point that same finger at most of the companies using this product--as I am certain that nearly everyone feels the need to add something to their service that makes them stand out--whether it be a well-written support manual, an in-house billing system, new Cpanel modules, enhanced reseller functionality, a great looking skin, or something else.[/quote:d02e0e89a7]
Quote: & I would imagine, however, that you will need to point that same finger at most of the companies using this product ... & : Why would I do that? I've already replied to this earlier.

You can bolt on your own billing function to the core product and skin it. I may skin it, add an outsourced billing script and offer ASP and ColdFusion as an added value (which I do all of these). The fact remains that at least 95% of the shared hosting features that you and I offer come from the same core Cpanel/WHM product.

[quote:d02e0e89a7]Much of the product that you are using now is the result of Adam's and my work.[/quote:d02e0e89a7]
You are giving the impression that you have written some of the pre-compile code or even maybe some of the scripts in the /scripts folder?

[quote:d02e0e89a7]As I see it, the only impending danger is not to Cpanel itself, nor to the innovative companies who have chosen to take the initiative and extend this product's functionality. Instead I think that--if anyone--the companies who simply put up a stock Cpanel install, who make no attempt to customize the product and make it their own, who are simply out to make a quick buck and not to establish a viable solution for their customers are the ones who should be worried.[/quote:d02e0e89a7]
Now, that's the biggest insult of all to any hosting company who've managed to grow their business while still offering the stock Cpanel (and by the way, I don't offer the stock Cpanel) and I've seen quite a few of them. What you call the &stock Cpanel& is what makes the job done. You can embellish it as much as you like with a more attractive skin and menu system and call it netadmin or whatever. At the end of the day, you're still using 100% pure Cpanel scripts and functions. That's it. And there's nothing inherently wrong with the stock Cpanel either. You may not like the looks of it, but it does exactly the same job that your skin does!

And anyone in this business would know that there are other variables in the equation of growing and being successful: responsive and quick customer support, network reliability, fast connections, an easy to use website to recruit the customers, high-rate server uptime, daily data backups, PR and so on. It isn't just the control panel. The CP is primarily there to relieve the host from spending a great deal of time and effort on server management and upkeep tasks and reduce his/her time spent on servicing the customer by providing effective self-help tools. And we all know that the combination of Cpanel and WHM are the best choice in reaching these important goals. But do you really think that you recruit a customer because he/she wants to get their hands on a specific control panel? It is the server admin that chooses which CP to use.

Cpanel/WHM is extremely desirable because we the sysadmins know that it makes our working lives so much easier to cope with, because we can customize it to our heart's content, and it isn't proprietary in the sense that you can install almost any program you like without breaking it (unlike the competition). Does it not help in our marketing? It sure does, and in a great way too. How could otherwise you or I or other hosts put up 50+ features in our shared hosting plans?
 

Site5-Matt

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2001
81
0
306
It takes two to Tango...

[quote:68f8b5e480][i:68f8b5e480]Originally posted by moronhead[/i:68f8b5e480]
You mean I deserve a good battering? Maybe you should have heeded Nick's words (I did!) and ended this thread on a positive note (as I offered it to you in my response to your private apology email) instead of going with your negative instincts and trying to kick me out of this forum because you just couldn't take in my opinion![/quote:68f8b5e480]Nick posted that note at my request, however I did feel it necessary to respond to what seemed to be the primary points of your post. I certainly don't have intentions of blocking your access from these forums. You will note that there are five little stars up by my name... if I had wanted to ban you, I would have done so long ago.
[quote:68f8b5e480]Wrong! I never said or suggested that private development of Cpanel/WHM should stop. Why should it stop? I offer my clients enhanced Cpanels myself as hundreds of other hosts do. But I don't claim that the product is my own creation because I made it more attractive to look at with a new skin and added a few bits to it.[/quote:68f8b5e480]
The majority of companies using Cpanel are not going to call it &Cpanel&. Again... back to the reseller issue. We would all look exactly the same.

However I don't think that's your main point. I think you're upset about the fact that we claim that NetAdmin is a Site5 product. However the fact of the matter is that NetAdmin [b:68f8b5e480]is[/b:68f8b5e480] a creation of Site5. It has it's own source tree, distribution/licensing system, integrated billing system, unique reseller features, enhanced functionality, thousands of lines of code, etc. Honestly--it's not the same thing. Sure, it does derive it's core functionality from Cpanel, but I personally believe that it is different enough so that we don't have to call it &Cpanel&. You are certainly welcome disagree with that opinion.

But in all honesty, if all you're upset about is companies enhancing Cpanel and then calling it by a different name, then I don't see how that can endanger the product's future. We still pay for it, even though we don't say we're using &Cpanel&. I was under the impression that you had a problem with the larger Cpanel companies engaging in private development for Cpanel, as opposed to contributing their work to the greater Cpanel product.

I guess I have simply become a little bit unclear as to what your main qualm is. At any rate, I have no intention of discussing it further. You are entitled to your own opinion, and if we haven't come to an agreement on this matter yet, I don't think we will. We will simply have to agree to disagree, and leave it at that.
[quote:68f8b5e480]The Cpanel community will be grateful to Vince for his positive contributions. He seems the sensible one at site5 as he's never bothered wasting his time writing in this thread. ;)[/quote:68f8b5e480]I do agree that this thread has been primarily a waste of time, aside from a few insightful posts/statements. You may think posting here makes me insensible, however as we all know... it takes two to Tango. (and you're not half bad, if I might say so :) )

[quote:68f8b5e480]I couldn't agree more. And these days it keeps getting better with higher velocity.[/quote:68f8b5e480]Having some (presumably) decent competition certainly motivates us to speed things along. ;)

[quote:68f8b5e480]Nick has already acknowledged your contribution so there's nothing to add in that direction. I never deliberately intended to insult you or your colleague, that's a heavy accusation.[/quote:68f8b5e480]I apologize then, if I read your post the wrong way. I was simply upset when you replied to our (what I thought to be) reasonable defense--calling it &feeble& and referring to us as &frontmen&. Perhaps you meant that in a good way, though. ;)

[quote:68f8b5e480]That's just a myth. You don't supply your netadmin skin even to your dedicated server clients, let alone offering it to the wider Cpanel community! But I agree that you don't have to.[/quote:68f8b5e480]We receive lots of requests to make NetAdmin available to other companies. We have, in the past, considered making it available to the public... however the main problem is that everything within it is so highly integrated with our internal systems that the majority of the extended functionality would be useless to anyone besides Site5. That, on top of the fact that we are not a software company is what turned us away from selling this product.
[quote:68f8b5e480]Malice? I don't believe I possess such a quality! Maybe you've found my comments controversial from your own angle, but that's just about it.[/quote:68f8b5e480]Malice was the wrong word to use here. I apologize.
[quote:68f8b5e480]Nobody said you're a bad company. I am merely concentrating on enlarging the scope of Cpanel/WHM for the good of the whole community. It's enhancements like Fantastico, Deoskins and others that get my vote because they are not saying: &I'll sell this to you if you host your site with me&.[/quote:68f8b5e480]Again, that goes back to the issue mentioned above. NetAdmin would be of little use to companies other than Site5. But on top of that, we are not out to develop and sell software--we are primarily a hosting provider. Albeit, we do sell Cpanel, however Site5 is not responsible for maintenance and development of this product.

[quote:68f8b5e480]You can bolt on your own billing function to the core product and skin it. I may skin it, add an outsourced billing script and offer ASP and ColdFusion as an added value (which I do all of these). The fact remains that at least 95% of the shared hosting features that you and I offer come from the same core Cpanel/WHM product.[/quote:68f8b5e480]As I said before, the core functionality is derived from Cpanel, however a fair amount of the features in NetAdmin are not possible with straight Cpanel. And of course, we never claim to have developed Cpanel. At site5.com/cp it is fairly clear that Cpanel is a DarkOrb product, and that Site5 simply sells and supports it.

[quote:68f8b5e480]You are giving the impression that you have written some of the pre-compile code or even maybe some of the scripts in the /scripts folder?[/quote:68f8b5e480]Yes, that's correct. While Nick certainly does the majority of the development for Cpanel, Adam and I both have contributed a fair amount to all aspects of the (pre-comiled) program, whether it be the Cpanel binary itself, the WebHostManager, the backend licensing system, the distributor interface, the /scripts directory, etc. That's what I meant when I said that we were both &Cpanel developers&. :)

[quote:68f8b5e480]Now, that's the biggest insult of all to any hosting company who've managed to grow their business while still offering the stock Cpanel (and by the way, I don't offer the stock Cpanel) and I've seen quite a few of them. What you call the &stock Cpanel& is what makes the job done. You can embellish it as much as you like with a more attractive skin and menu system and call it netadmin or whatever. At the end of the day, you're still using 100% pure Cpanel scripts and functions[/quote:68f8b5e480]Hmm.. rats! What's all this code we've been writing? *confused* :)
[quote:68f8b5e480]That's it. And there's nothing inherently wrong with the stock Cpanel either. You may not like the looks of it, but it does exactly the same job that your skin does![/quote:68f8b5e480]
But honestly, there is nothing wrong with using a stock Cpanel install. You will notice I said &if anyone&... meaning... these people should perhaps be the most concerned--but certainly not that being successful with a stock Cpanel install is impossible. In fact, far from it. Again, that is a testament to the program's ease of use, and out-of-the-box functionality. I may be wrong, but I think even Ventures Online uses the default Cpanel skin (or used to), and they have been wildly successful. When it all comes down to it, a control panel is only a small piece of the bigger picture.
[quote:68f8b5e480]we all know that the combination of Cpanel and WHM are the best choice in reaching these important goals[/quote:68f8b5e480]I definitely agree. Unfortunately, relating back to the original topic of the thread (god forbid :) ), some people disagree with this statement. The real purpose here is to discuss ways that Cpanel can improve, and I think you did a pretty good job of listing a few of the major issues that are currently plaguing the software.
[quote:68f8b5e480]But do you really think that you recruit a customer because he/she wants to get their hands on a specific control panel? It is the server admin that chooses which CP to use.[/quote:68f8b5e480]Not usually... but in some cases, a great looking control panel can be the deciding factor. I happen to think that Communitech's PCP 4 XL is a spectacular control panel, and with everything else being equal, that might be the deciding factor for me.
[quote:68f8b5e480]Cpanel/WHM is extremely desirable because we the sysadmins know that it makes our working lives so much easier to cope with, because we can customize it to our heart's content, and it isn't proprietary in the sense that you can install almost any program you like without breaking it (unlike the competition). Does it not help in our marketing? It sure does, and in a great way too. How could otherwise you or I or other hosts put up 50+ features in our shared hosting plans?[/quote:68f8b5e480]For most companies without a full-time, in-house development staff, Cpanel is the sole reason that they are in business (Site5 included--we would not be in business if it weren't for this product). It has come a long way since we first started using it (I started using it at version 2.0, and Adam started... well.. before it was even a twinkle in Nick's eye ;) ). I have no doubt that it will continue to be a viable solution for established companies and newbies alike for years to come. And [b:68f8b5e480]that[/b:68f8b5e480] is something that we both agree on. :)

Regards,
Matt Lightner
 

rpmws

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2001
1,802
9
318
back woods of NC, USA
Well I am broke as always but anyhow .01 worth from me

I read this whole thread today. I am done now ..it only took me 4 hours.:p I figure I am pretty much right in line with Matt on just about everything he said and I would like to also add that I can't remember him ever asking for support on here. In fact he (out of the blue) emailed me (without me asking) and he spent 40 minutes with me at midnight one night and after trying to help me fix that stupid bind issue with the resolv.conf... We never figured it out but he sure tried to and I had no prior dealing with him at all. He knew I was at another NOC as well. Very helpful he was and didn't ask for 1 penny. I think he and site5 for that matter has been nothing but helpful to this whole project. And lately I most certainly agree that if anyone can pump out improvements it is Nick. I hear all the time how great this new &P-shaft& and &H-Spear& junk is all the time from you may know who. Sure it might have some neat features but so what?? I am sticking with Nick and Cpanel and I mean that.. nothing out there is more promising PERIOD! Especially after the fire I have seen under his but the last few weeks ..WOW! This is off the subject a bit but why in the world would someone want each web site they host to be dependant on 5 different servers anyway? 5 machines ..5 chances for downtime that can wreck your uptime in any area. I think for the most part nick's design is better in so many respects. and that is no suck-up. I dish it out when it is time .. :p .. you guys behave on here.. hight blood pressue and stress from a hurtfull comment(s) can't do anyone good just like Nick said. :)
 

moronhead

Well-Known Member
Aug 12, 2001
706
0
316
rpmws: Why on earth would you spend 4 whole hours of your precious life in this thread, it's beyond me! I dread about even the idea of having to spend time to reply to Matt's unending posts.

I believe the case between Matt and myself will soon end with a handshake as we're also communicating with email.

But anyway, your opinion is no doubt welcome, although maybe you should have separated your post into two sections. One to deal with the competition (which isn't my idea, that privilege belongs to the first poster) and the second to deal with how to make Cpanel/WHM even more competitive than it is for the good of the whole user community (that's the topic I've started).

As to Jeremy's concerns about the competition, although I don't for a minute agree that this is the place to discuss the competition (and you will see that I don't discuss it), maybe he should not have been shoved aside in the way he was as I believe we should always be sensitive to our fellow members regardless of their opinion (OK, there may be exceptions to this) and try to see what good might come out of it.

Despite all the criticism, in the past week or two we've seen that pressure even from perceived competition (as we don't even know if hostchewy [I can't fully remember the name!] will ever take off or confined to the cyber dustbin - who knows what their actual intentions are) doesn't hurt if it helps the development team to push things further as Matt himself confirmed it in his last post.

Regards,

Norman
 

Site5-Matt

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2001
81
0
306
[quote:aee6c7c55d][i:aee6c7c55d]Originally posted by moronhead[/i:aee6c7c55d]Why on earth would you spend 4 whole hours of your precious life in this thread, it's beyond me! I dread about even the idea of having to spend time to reply to Matt's unending posts.[/quote:aee6c7c55d]Well... it started out good. It's like a movie that has a catchy teaser, so you end up sitting through the whole thing just to see if it's any good. Unfortunately this one was a bomb for the most part.
[quote:aee6c7c55d]I believe the case between Matt and myself will soon end with a handshake as we're also communicating with email.[/quote:aee6c7c55d]Indeed. You made a good showing, I must admit. Most people don't have the mental (not to mention ocular) stamina to hang through even one of my posts. You have managed to gracefully navigate three, and with good face at that. Now that I think about it, I don't think that has ever happened to me before :p. Quite commendable.
[quote:aee6c7c55d]As to Jeremy's concerns about the competition, although I don't for a minute agree that this is the place to discuss the competition (and you will see that I don't discuss it), maybe he should not have been shoved aside in the way he was as I believe we should always be sensitive to our fellow members regardless of their opinion (OK, there may be exceptions to this) and try to see what good might come out of it. [/quote:aee6c7c55d]Bringing up direct competitors in any company's private forum is usually a good way to cause problems--regardless of the company or service you are talking about. When a company sees the names of competitors showing up in front of all of their customers, I can guarantee you they aren't going to be very happy. I think that you can pretty much expect to have a thread like that pulled. This isn't an Internet newsgroup where anything is fair game--it is a private discussion forum setup by a company who is trying to sell a quality service.

Matt
 

sexy_guy

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2003
848
0
166
Originally posted by Domenico
Since when do you delete postings?

Can't I talk about concurrent control panels like http://www.hostgui.com ???

I was telling that it kicks ass and looks superb!
DarkOrb better watch out for the competition to come...

I'm a cpanel/whm user and I wanted to know when we get a SKIN that looks good? Get one from the contest and many of us are satisfied. Or don't you want to pay the designers?

Man, I can't stand people deleting my postings!!!
Does this mean I can't be critical about Cpanel here?

What a forum would that be?
Nope you cant be. Dont ever post anything against them because your account may be suspended like they did to Ozzi! He was telling me Darkorb suspended his account for being vocal about bugs and things that just dont work. Scream louder my friend. Myabe they will suspend you just like they did Ozzi. I think that is censorship at its best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

sexy_guy

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2003
848
0
166
Re: Re: Re: WHAAAAAAAAAAAAA DELETING MY POSTING???

Originally posted by thaphantom
Yea listen to Ozzi that is it... I was wondering why he was gone, and I for one am glad. He wasnt pointing out bugs, he whined, and thats all he ever did. He would request cPanel to be rewritten specifically for him, not bug fixes, but rewritten. I dont like perl rewrite it in C.... BS like that. Ozzi very rarely posted real bugs, he posted stuff he wantes changed, and then would spam it in every thread. He always stated how bad cPanel was... he really shoulda just left on his own, done everyone a favor.
Im sorry but your way of cue. I read his posts and he never posted anyting about rewritting anything. If anything, he was posting about all the bugs in Cpanel that should be fixed which according to the post i read, still go unfixed. For eg, Hotlinking which still doesnt work, domlog removals when removing sites etc etc etc. The list is endless and i see where the guy is coming from. He knows more about Cpanel then Cpanel know about Cpanel. Then i saw you posting all these msgs on Rackshack about how close you are to Cpanel and how you speak to Nick daily on the phone. Hey howabout this! Ill get a list of bugs from Aussie that still exists from Cpanel, back from the v5 days, and you can read them off to old Nick on the phone. Do you think you can help everyone out in the forums with that? As for your credibility, i really question that because i have read your posts and quite frankly you are just as green as the rest of us are. And just as misinformed! :cool: And one more thing, Aussie happens to be a paying customer. How dare Darkorb ban a paying customer from voicing his own opinion. Whining or not people do it around here, day in and day out. This is just downright rude if you ask me. Nobody should be banned from the forums, especially when they are paying for a product that puts food in Nicks mouth.
 
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SageBrian

Well-Known Member
Jun 1, 2002
415
2
318
NY/CT (US)
cPanel Access Level
Root Administrator
Ozzi was rough in his postings, but when you got past the attitude, there was validity to most of what he was saying.

Bugs should be fixed before new features are added. And more testing should be done before things are released as "Release" and especially "Stable".
 

cPanelNick

Administrator
Staff member
Mar 9, 2015
3,482
35
208
cPanel Access Level
DataCenter Provider
Re: Re: Re: Re: WHAAAAAAAAAAAAA DELETING MY POSTING???

Originally posted by sexy_guy
Im sorry but your way of cue. I read his posts and he never posted anyting about rewritting anything. If anything, he was posting about all the bugs in Cpanel that should be fixed which according to the post i read, still go unfixed. For eg, Hotlinking which still doesnt work, domlog removals when removing sites etc etc etc. The list is endless and i see where the guy is coming from. He knows more about Cpanel then Cpanel know about Cpanel. Then i saw you posting all these msgs on Rackshack about how close you are to Cpanel and how you speak to Nick daily on the phone. Hey howabout this! Ill get a list of bugs from Aussie that still exists from Cpanel, back from the v5 days, and you can read them off to old Nick on the phone.



That would be nice as he doesn't seem to respond to my requests for that list.

Do you think you can help everyone out in the forums with that? As for your credibility, i really question that because i have read your posts and quite frankly you are just as green as the rest of us are. And just as misinformed! :cool: And one more thing, Aussie happens to be a paying customer. How dare Darkorb ban a paying customer from voicing his own opinion. Whining or not people do it around here, day in and day out. This is just downright crap if yu ask me. Nobody should be banned from the forums, especially when they are paying for a product that puts food in their mouth.
 

moronhead

Well-Known Member
Aug 12, 2001
706
0
316
Why has this thread been resurrected? It should be let to die.

sexy_guy, have you got your $100 back from ozzi yet? Marty and others have shown everyone how squirrelmail can easily be installed in a cpanel-managed server... at no charge.

Or has he done the squirrelmail job on your servers for free... in exchange for becoming his mouthpiece?
 
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sexy_guy

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2003
848
0
166
Originally posted by moronhead
Why has this thread been resurrected? It should be let to die.

sexy_guy, have you got your $100 back from ozzi yet? Marty and others have shown everyone how squirrelmail can easily be installed in a cpanel-managed server... at no charge.

Or has he done the squirrelmail job on your servers for free... in exchange for becoming his mouthpiece?
I dont want it back. Marty may have shown the installation but unfortuantely he leaves alot of important information out. And does it work under phpsuexec? It doesnt and ours works in a phpsuexec environment. Besides, the last time we spoke spoke about in a PM I told you how much he was charging for the installation because you were itchy to install it. I guess you were too cheap to pay a real pro the installation costs for his work and after sales service.
 

moronhead

Well-Known Member
Aug 12, 2001
706
0
316
Originally posted by sexy_guy
I dont want it back. Marty may have shown the installation but unfortuantely he leaves alot of important information out. And does it work under phpsuexec? It doesnt and ours works in a phpsuexec environment. Besides, the last time we spoke about in a PM I told you how much he was charging for the installation because you were itchy to install it. I guess you were too cheap to pay a real pro the installation costs for his work and after sales service.
Your criticism of fellow Cpanel users who are trying to help each other out on here won't cut much ice.

Ozzi was a real pro??? He didn't even know what the ftpusers file was or what it did! We had to teach him. :eek: