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X3 v Paper Lantern

Discussion in 'User Experience' started by PCZero, Jun 30, 2015.

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  1. PCZero

    PCZero Well-Known Member

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    PLEASE do not delete X3 form WHM any time soon. The new PL branding is nowhere near ready for live production and it is severely limited in its capabilities compared to X3. I fully understand the efforts in building PL and appreciate that level of work. That though does not mean that a fully functional, easy to maintain theme such a X3 should just be tossed aside. There really is no good reason to delete X3. A LOT of people use it and like it very much. MANY people do not like the plain (and IMHO) ugly look of the flat design that PL uses. It is very awkward to use for desktop users and some people with vision issues. Please do not delete X3. There is no good reason to do so.

    Please address these two glaring weaknesses in PL before going any further...

    1) Add a section in the main are of the PL page with icons for the features that have been HIDDEN in the drop down at the top of the screen. EVERY SINGLE CLIENT who has tested PL for me was unable to locste those options when they needed to use them.

    a) Change Password
    b) Change Language
    c) Change Style
    d) Contact Information
    e) Reset Page


    2) Edit the main menu items. REMOVE "AddOn Domains" and replace it with "Help" (moved to the end of the selections.

    Very few clients use AddOn Domains. It is FAR superior to have a link for HELP readily available without making a client scroll the whole page to find it. AddOn Doamins is an absurd choice to piut on the main menu.


    3) Allow for multiple 'skins' of PL just like we could do with X3. The current state of PL allow just one skin so that users will have no choice of what to use. For example, in X3 I have five different skins set up. They all have the exact same functionality but each uses a unique color scheme and a unique set of header and other images. I have found no way to set up multiple unique PL themes. This is a severe limitation that X3 does not have.

    --> From what I have seen you can have ONE custom logo that MUST be shared between every PL skin. This is a weakness/limitation that X3 does not have and it should be addressed before making PL live. <--

    NOTE: This MAY have been addressed already but I have failed to find it discussed anywhere in the documentation.
     
    #1 PCZero, Jun 30, 2015
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  2. PCZero

    PCZero Well-Known Member

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    There are STILL several issues with paper Lantern that have yet to be even acknowledged let alone addressed, yet we are seeing deprication warnings for X3 in WHM. Could someone form the PL development team please comment?

    1) Making custom styles for the PL theme is VERY awkward and requires extensive manual coding as opposed to the X3 Branding Live Editor feature. Please provide this level of functionality for PL so as to not have a downgrade in the ability to brand/style the PL theme.

    2) I see no way to have a custom header logo for each individual PL style. In the X3 theme, the capability was present to set the hear logo each style style. So that if I were to create (for example) six custom styles with different color schemes, I could have a header logo designed for each color scheme. In PL there is no way to do this, I can only have ONE custom logo.

    3) I see no way to limit the styles available to my customers. As I could in X3, I want them ONLY to be able to choose from my custom PL styles and not have the 'basic' or 'retro' canned styles available. Please provide a way to do this.

    4) I have not seen any documentation as to how to prepare, name, and store the preview images for my custom PL styles. Please provide this information.

    5) Please provide information on how I can set up a custom main menu. The default options of Home - File Manager - Email are not what my customers would want.

    6) Please allow a custom header with the ability to remove the combo box with the drop down to select the Change Password, Change Style, Contact Information, and Reset Page Settings functions. Please add these functions back to the main page so that hey are no longer hidden and have to be hunted for.

    Thanks.

    (PLEASE DO NOT DROP X3 UNTIL ALL OF THESE GLARING WEAKNESSES HAVE BEEN FULLY RESOLVED. AS IT STANDS NOW, PL IS NOT READY FOR FULL PRODUCTION USE.)
     
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  3. PCZero

    PCZero Well-Known Member

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    I noticed that one of the admins decided to merge these threads. I only started a new one as the original had never been acknowledged in any manner and I deduced that it was posted in the wrong place. I have no idea what to think now.

    Will the admin who moved the later post please respond to my input either 1) with input on how the weaknesses are being addressed or 2) to whom I should specifically send this input so it does get addressed before X3 is purged and PL is forced onto us?

    Thanks!
     
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  4. Infopro

    Infopro cPanel Sr. Product Evangelist
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    I merged your posts. I was actually considering merging several more by you too, on the same topic. There is no need to repost comments when you don't get a reply. I think you already know this.

    I've also alerted @cPanelAdam to your comments over a week ago. We'll have to assume he's quite busy, but he will get back to these threads in the "User Experience" forum where these threads belong, as soon as he can. He's been very helpful in responding to your posts in the past as you know.

    As as already been mentioned to you several times, If you've got ideas on how to make the cPanel product better, opening Feature Requests is how that's done.

    The documentation for Paper Lantern has been linked to you multiple times now, so I won't bother here. I would only add that most all of your questions are answered in those docs.

    Additional comments by you on the same topic going forward, will simply be merged here.
     
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  5. PCZero

    PCZero Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the response! MUCH appreciated. I was not sure if anyone in the appropriate position had even seen my post.

    I do not think that most of my feedback would be classified as feature requests or I would have opened up a ticket for that. They are more request to fix broken things or request on how to do things that are NOT covered in the PL documentation. Specifically items 2-5 in my list are not covered anywhere an have not been addressed by anyone. I would think that most, if not all, of them are possible but they are not documented. Can you please provide the how to for each of those or a link to a specific how to for each?

    Thanks!
     
  6. Infopro

    Infopro cPanel Sr. Product Evangelist
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    I'm not going to go through all of your posts and Adam's responses to them. I have read them all over the past year or so though, as you have too, I guess, and think he's answered a lot of this already. If you haven't, I might assume you won't read this long post either. But, I'm always up for a challenge. The replies below are my own and of course not official responses from cPanel on the Paper Lantern style. I have nothing to do with that department at cPanel although I have provided my own feedback to the team since the start of Paper Lantern, when asked.

    On what? What could they acknowledge for you here in this thread that's not already been discussed on the forums, mostly in threads of yours, already? The comment is too broad to reply properly, IMO. Narrowing it down, linking to specific existing thread/issue that has not been acknowledged yet, would be helpful. (We might even call it a Feature Request)

    Assuming 2-5 are those of which you speak, lets keep moving.

    Agreed. The Live Editor in x3 was nice, easy, browse buttons to add images even! :) x3 was also around for many years.

    AFAIK, x3 did not come with the sort of functionality it has now, that was added over time once x3 was up and running. It's now old news and being replaced with all new. This is my own opinion on the timeline, don't hold this to be true, but that Live Editor did not come with x3 from the start, as I recall.

    So, item #1 is a Feature Request(1). Is there one existing? Not sure, but if there is, I bet you posted it. :D

    This isn't the x3 theme. Paper Lantern is not just a new design, it's a whole new way of doing things. And its new! Additional functionality and features don't all get rolled out into new. They come in over time once that new functionality is in stable, and ready to be extended. Like building your own website.

    Here are 11 old styles for Paper Lantern:
    https://github.com/CpanelInc/Paper_Lantern_Customizations/tree/master/styled
    Here's what they look like:
    http://cpanelinc.github.io/Paper_Lantern_Customizations/

    If you can't set a specific logo per style, but you want to, that might be a Feature Request(2). I think an option for this under the Branding area in WHM where you can set a default logo, might be a nice idea. Still, how many Hosting Providers (any company in general) change out their logo depending on the style of their website? Branding, and specific logo, is important.

    These docs might be of some use:
    http://documentation.cpanel.net/display/PLD/Develop+a+Style
    http://documentation.cpanel.net/display/PLD/Customize+Paper+Lantern

    Sounds like a Feature Request(3) to hide default styles so you don't have to delete them off the server after every cPupdate.

    Lets take another look at tose 11 old PL styles in github:
    https://github.com/CpanelInc/Paper_Lantern_Customizations/tree/master/styled

    Open each of them to find the preview.png file included in the directory there. If you uploaded these 11 styles to your server, those preview images should be called properly from that default location, I believe. I played around with these styles a while back on a stage server but don't have access to it this morning to check this.

    Have you created a single new Paper Lantern style, yet? How did it come out? Care to share it with me privately so I can peek at your work? I'd love to see what you have so far.

    This is a Feature Request(4) to enhance functionality of Paper Lantern. I agree with this and would vote for your Feature Request concerning having this added at some point.

    This is a matter of opinion on this one I think. Some Includes are now possible:
    https://documentation.cpanel.net/display/PLD/Customize+Content+in+Paper+Lantern

    But not for what you want yet. You want to roll back a major change in how Paper Lantern is setup, with this, yes it is, Feature Request(5) to move an entire menu somewhere else, closer to where it used to be, because thats where you liked the menu.

    They only need to be hunted for, once. How many people never saw the Reset link in footer of x3 until they needed it and hunted around a moment, or asked here on the forums to be directed to it?



    And then you go on to use all caps like these issues are an emergency, critical situation, posting in multiple threads to get some attention brought to your opinion and Feature Requests that do not belong on the forums, they belong in those Feature Requests you've posted already, or should be posting soon, I hope.


    This reply took a chunk out of my morning. I'm a forum mod though, no loss. Do we really want Adam spending that much time answering these repeated in all caps requests for additional functionality missing from x3 because we won't settle for any less until Paper Lantern is exactly like x3 in all it does?

    I don't. Adam and his team are doing amazing things right now. Paper Lantern has come a long way in the past year and that doesn't end when x3 is deprecated at some point in time down the road.

    I've seen Adam posting to reddit, WHT, these forums, the Feature Requests system, the ticket system, and other places evangelizing Paper Lantern in a big way for a long time now. And they (Adam and his team) are listening, and they are extending features and functions.

    This is just plain over the top. You and I both know this.


    The Feature Request system has rules in place, for a reason:
    https://forums.cpanel.net/pages/cpfeatures/

    One idea per Feature Request is key there. It makes going thru them easier and more manageable. Having them in the Feature Requests system, makes it easier for others to vote on and comment as well.

    These long posts of yours might be called feedback by you, but to me, they're most all Feature Requests to extend the functionality of the cPanel product. And you want the team in charge to go thru these long posts and make these changes ASAP, in, ALL CAPS!

    Some of your posts are just tiring to read, man. You're always mad it seems.

    I hope this post is of some use.
     
  7. PCZero

    PCZero Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your responses. I won't respond point by point as it is not worth getting into that level of discussion.

    A lot of my comments boiled down to a "how do I do this" type question that had never been answered. Now I have been told in most cases that answer is "you cannot do that in PL".

    Thank you for the link to some examples of PL skins. Thanks for that. I will us those examples to try to make up for the weaknesses that I have cited.

    The weaknesses that you just actually acknowledged are all of the functionality that was left out of PL that X3 had. Which in and of itself makes PL not ready for full implementation to the extent of deleting X3. Simply saying something is "a new way of doing things" does not mean it is 1) better (or not) or 2) even close to ready for production. PL may be a cool interface for some and I am not trying to put down the hours of work put in by that team in any way. I just think that whoever is making the decision to rush out PL and delete X3 is doing so way too soon. The main thing that puzzles me is that there was really no need to replace a fully functional and 100% viable package such as X3. Then again I am more of a "if it a'int broke don't fix it" type of person.

    The things that you have identified for me as being limitations of or excluded functionality in PL I will be submitting requests for.

    BTW Sorry if the caps offended you. That was intentional to ensure that the comments there stood out and were read as it was the most important part of my post.
     
  8. feldon27

    feldon27 Well-Known Member

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    Infopro,

    With the current cPanel approach to development, X3 would be phased out and Paper Lantern would be rolled out to all users. At that point, PCZero and others would experience a significant feature degradation in the software and then need to initiate numerous Feature Requests to get those features back. It could take months for enough votes to be tabulated to get any traction on these issues. It might then take months or years before these changes are implemented.

    Directing PCZero to create Feature Requests to try to get Paper Lantern up to feature parity with what it is replacing (X3) seems like the least efficient possible way of handling this situation.

    I'm going to assume that Paper Lantern is designed with modern CSS coding so that it is easier for the cPanel team to maintain. That's completely reasonable. I'm sure that X3 is a bear to maintain. However it seems the baby is being thrown out with the bath water and nearly all customization ability is going to be lost.

    Web hosts need to be able to "brand" their user's control panels and Paper Lantern doesn't seem to yet measure up to that requirement. I think it is acceptable for PCZero to be requesting some dialogue with the Paper Lantern team at this juncture, rather than through a form website at some future date to resolve these design issues.
     
    #8 feldon27, Jul 10, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2015
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  9. Infopro

    Infopro cPanel Sr. Product Evangelist
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    Which one?
     
  10. PCZero

    PCZero Well-Known Member

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    Feldon thank you for your comments. The point you are making about asking for PL to have at least close to comparable functionality with X3 before pulling the plug is the main thing I am asking. Based on the numerous items I have listed, it is clear that at this point it is not. As such it is VERY premature to even consider pulling X3 let alone actually doing it.

    You are absolutely 100% right that it would take moths if not years for a suggested/request to work through the system when at least some (if not a majority) of my requests are asking that existing functionality is not left out of the new scheme. I do realize that a lot of hard work has gone into PL and I am sure when it is actually finished it will be nice, just it is not there yet.

    My branding question was actually pretty simple. In X3, each style was completely customizable and it did not share components. SO that is I had there styles (red, blue, and black) I could have my logo design uniquely for each so that it looked good with each specif style. With PL I am limited to ONE logo and I have to try to come up with one that fits well with ALL styles. That is difficult to do.

    Then with PL I am forced to have the default style (and from what I am seeing the X3 look alike style) enabled to all users so that I can't limit users to my custom styles. There really is no point at all in having custom styles if user can pick the canned ones. No point at all...

    Anyway as I said the problem is that a lot of the standard functionality of X3 has been eliminated from PL (or at least had not been coded in yet) and until it is added back in, there really is no need to drop X3 and force us to use a functionally crippled option.
     
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  11. feldon27

    feldon27 Well-Known Member

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    Issues #1-6 in the OP's post.
     
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  12. PCZero

    PCZero Well-Known Member

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    OK So I click FEATURE REQUESTS at the top of this page and I get a page hat describes the process but has no link at all to submit a request (even if it is a request to finish coding a new theme before making it mandatory).

    Never mind. I found a vrry obscure link that is not in any way formatted to indicate it is a link. Maybe I need to may a request to make the feature request system easier to find! :)
     
  13. Infopro

    Infopro cPanel Sr. Product Evangelist
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  14. PCZero

    PCZero Well-Known Member

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    So much for the feature request being a useful tool... :) Kind of proves the point on how long it takes for a request to get any attention!
     
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  15. PCZero

    PCZero Well-Known Member

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    OK I submitted each of these six request to compete PL before making it mandatory as feature requests, (although I fail to see how simply asking for a project to be finished before it is released should be called a feature request). They are all in the system with the title FINISH PL BEFORE MAKING IT MADATORY (I had a typo and left the "N" out of MANDATORY).

    I have no idea in hell how we are supposed to go about getting people to vote for a request (even if it is a request to finish a job before releasing it) but they all seem to be no brainers.

    1 - Is it OK for me to post in relevant threads that the requests ate in place and ask people to go vote?
    2 - How many votes does a request need before it actually gets attention?

    Thanks
     
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  16. Infopro

    Infopro cPanel Sr. Product Evangelist
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    Threads with you are always fun.

    You cannot see the links still, is that it?
     
  17. Infopro

    Infopro cPanel Sr. Product Evangelist
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    No. As mentioned on that page you have troubles viewing links on, this is all explained quite clearly I think. All Feature Requests are moderated before being approved. Feature Requests are no longer handled on the forums.
     
  18. PCZero

    PCZero Well-Known Member

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    OK so it is not even allowed to discuss requests in the forum? Seriously? That seems very counter productive.
     
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  19. Infopro

    Infopro cPanel Sr. Product Evangelist
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    The Feature Requests system was moved away from the forums in 2012. You know this, you've been participating with them for a few years now I believe.

    GJ on the all caps titles. :rolleyes:
     
  20. PCZero

    PCZero Well-Known Member

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    You said those many months ago that the pages were in the process of being restyled per the request. Obviously nothing has changed. This goes dirtectly to how little the requests mean. Conversations may be fun but at least I do not belittle people who are making legitimate requests and end up getting frustrated by the lack of response by anyone ay cPanel without posting the same question multiple times over several months.
     
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